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Ornate Nile Monitor Growth Rate

Discussion in 'Monitors' started by PrimalBeasts, Nov 8, 2009.

  1. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    Hey guys, I hope everyone and everyone's herps are doing great. Anyways, I'm starting to build my reptile collection again and I'm going to the NY Metropolitan Reptile Show. I've also gotten into contact with a few of the vendors and have been offered an ornate nile monitor that is roughly 18 months old and 27 inches total length. I am wondering, is he small for his size? The guy seems to know what he is doing, but I am worried the animal is stunted since ornates have been known to get up to 6 feet in length and are hefty.
     


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  3. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    Yes it is small for the age,but it is not uncommon.When kept in conditions not favorable monitors grow at a much slower rate,if even at all.It could be stunted but once set up properly it should start growing.

    Didn't you just get a new Savanna?If so instead of getting a new monitor why not just dedicate your time and money to the monitor you already have?Keeping one monitor is a huge responsibly,and until you get a grasp on that one monitor you should try to stay away from the monitor bug.

    greg
     
  4. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I would have to agree with Greg on this one, the ornate monitor, (not ornate nile, just Varanus ornatus), can get to 8 feet. You really do need lots of experience before you get the larger varanid species. (The ornate is the largest African varanid, and probably the 3rd or 4th largest in the world).
     
  5. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    No I didn't get any varanid yet. I won't be getting one until the expo (11/29). Also once I do get a varanid, I will be dedicating a lot of time for it. In fact, I'm even in preparations into building the enclosures. I just have to decide which is more favorable to me. I'm new to varanids, but I am by no means new to reptiles. I've had colubrids since I was ten and boids since I was fourteen. I'm currently nineteen so I have knowledge of reptilian husbandry.
     
  6. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    I've never heard of ornates reaching those sizes. I know the ornates are heavier than the nile, but aren't they shorter and heftier?
     
  7. gbassett

    gbassett Elite Member

    Keeping monitors is nothing like keeping snakes,monitors are more active and require a lot of space and food.If you are getting you first monitor why don't you try an Akies,they make a good first monitor and are very forgiving of keeper error.Starting out with an Ornate or Nile is not a good choice.They get to be about 6 to 7 feet,and they need a very large enclosure which is beyond the means of most people.What end up happening is most of the people who buy Niles,get them because of there low price tag and then realize they can not properly care for them.

    greg
     
  8. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Varanus ornatus is often said to be smaller (shorter) than V. niloticus, but that`s untrue, ornatus is thought to go over 8 feet, the largest niloticus was measuered at 8 feet, but the ornate is more heavily built as you say, so obviously it`s larger! There`s a skull in a museum in Germany that measures 14.3cm, my monitors skull is 14cm. ( measured from the anterior edge of the tympanum), and as I say, he`s 7ft. 4 and a 1/2 inches with approx 2 inches missing from his tail-tip. Daniel Bennett states the burrows of ornatus are "huge". If you do decide to get the V.ornatus, I`ll give details of some useful articles, not much work has been done on this species in the wild, although it`s been bred a few times in the States, but as far as I know just the once in Europe.
    (The first time was in the Bronx zoo, N.Y).
     
  9. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    yeah, I know of this. Many people buy them on impulse, same with large boids. I actually posted this thread just to find out if the ornate has been stunted and to also find out on the growth rate. My intentions were to actually start with a savannah monitor or if I can find them in the NY Metropolitan Reptile Show, an ackie. Though ackies are hard to come by in NY and the show mostly just focuses on savannahs, white throats (legit cape banded whites), argus, dumerils, tree monitors, and peachies. You also see the occassional black roughneck and freckled monitor, but it is rare. The thought of the ornate just popped up because I was talking to one of the breeders there on possibly acquiring a well started sav and he brought up the ornate since it has been in his possession for a year and a half.
     
  10. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    Although I'll most likely start with a savannah monitor or an ackie (if I can find one at the reptile expo), I'd love to see the information on the ornate monitor. I just looked through the HC photo gallery and you have a beautiful ornate monitor. Can you give me some information on growth rate of the ornate?
     
  11. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    I will give you some article titles, but I`m not sure if they`re available to read online, if not and you`re interested, send me a PM, I`d be more than happy to post them to you, as far as the growth rates of this species, they`re the same in most varanids, they grow at the highest rate during the first 3 or 4 years, then it slows somewhat... The most he grew in one month was 3.5 inches, he was almost 6 feet long at 2 years of age. I have records of my ornatus monthly growth (mainly length) for the last 13 years, although he hasn`t grown very much in the last 3 years or so, it was once thought they grew the whole of their life, but recent studies show that may not be the case. I can try and put the growth rates up on the forum, but I don`t know if the pages would show clearly, I`ve never tried, maybe you can tell me if it would work!?
     
  12. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    I'm definitely interested in reading the articles as well as the growth rates of your ornatus. Can you tell me how long was your hatchling, the age, and how long he was at approximately 20 months? Thank you.
     
  13. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    Hi, he was 32.5cm, (12&3/4 inches) when I got him, I guess one or two months old at the most, he grew by 83cm, (32&3/4 inches) in the first 12 months, (sorry, I usually work AND think in metric!! ). I got him on the 16th. October 1996. on the 12th Oct. `97 he was 115.5cm. (45&1/2inches). after 20 months he was 162.5cm., (64 inches). As I said I measured him very single month for over ten years, but you cannot compare one single animal, and transfer that to another, because they grow at different rates, depending on conditions, (food, temps etc). I was cooperating with a couple of scientists who were studying the growth rates of this species in the Congo (Africa), but they had to postpone the study because of the civil unrest...I`ll give you a couple of article titles, but they are not vailable online, maybe you can order them from the library, or as I said, I will be happy to send them to you.


    Angelici and Luiselli, (1999) Rev. Ecol.(Terra Vie), vol. 54, pages 29 to 41 "Aspects of the Ecology of Varanus niloticus" etc ( It IS about the ornate monitor)

    Also: Luiselli and Akani et al. (1999) Journal of Zoology, London #247, pages 127 to 131: "Is there any Interspecific competition" etc
    (You only need the journal numbers and authors, the full title isn`t necessary at a library).
    I have a couple of articles on the captive breeding of this species, but they were sent to me privately, one is not published, so if I were to send you a copy, it`s ONLY for your own personal use. There are a few more, but I need to search, I have well over 200 articles on most varanid species, and I have personal experience with quite a large number of species both in the wild and in captivity...
     
  14. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    I'd appreciate it if you can send them to me. Also that is quite the growth rate. I'm familiar with the metric system to that is fine. Though going from 32.5 cm to 83 cm in one year is quite impressive.
     
  15. murrindindi

    murrindindi Elite Member

    If you send me your details to my private email address, I`ll get back to you, I can post them in the next day or two. I had a video on this forum of me feeding him, but the person who put it on here and on youtube must have deleted it for reasons known only to herself, I had no idea `til another member said it had gone, but I`ll send you a copy, it will take a few days, because I need to get more copies made..
     
  16. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot murrindindi. I'll send you a PM now with my email address.
     
  17. hey man im from new york also and i work at a reptile rescue!! just an FYI nile monitors are illegal here in NY Welcome to ReptileExpo.com see the restrictions for the NY expo just a heads up incase you didnt kno lol
     
  18. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    LOL no they don't, they just made it illegal to sell them unless you have a special permit from the Fish and Game. A lot of people in NY believes that, however if you are to walk into any reptile store in NYC or in NY state that has this permit, you will find:niles,waters,crocs,black throats, etc. A new law also went in effect, no python or boas may be sold or any colubrid that exceeds 6 feet in 2006 in the 5 counties of NYC unless you have a special permit. As of 2006, rosy boas, kenyan sand boas, ball pythons, etc. are illegal to be sold. However, keeping them is perfectly legal. The local herpetological society in Elmont New York has over 40 members and all 40 of them own snakes over 6 feet long and the varanids listed as illegal on the list. This is a misconception LOL. But thanks for the heads up :D
     
  19. Merlin

    Merlin Administrator Staff Member Premium Member

  20. PrimalBeasts

    PrimalBeasts Well-Known Member

    Oh wow, that's strange. This law went in effect 2005, the last time I went to White Plains Reptile show, they still have varanids in 2007. I also recall seeing several baby black throats for sale at $125 at the show. To my knowledge, it is illegal to sell but it is legal to own. In some counties, you require permits, but in others you don't. But thanks for bringing that to my attention.

    Update:
    Ok, so I've consulted the local herpetological society as well as the Western NewYork and Long Island Herpetological Society. Along with this, I've also consulted the director of the Reptile Expo and he has sent this to me in his email:

    RULES:
    1. ALL TABLES MUST BE PREPAID
    2. NO SPLITTING of TABLES
    3. All animals must be PROPERLY HOUSED, IN CLEAN CONTAINERS & HEALTHY
    4. NO VENOMOUS or DEVENOMIZED ANIMALS ALLOWED!!!! (NO EXCEPTIONS, WITH OR WITHOUT PERMITS)
    5. LIVE RODENTS are PERMITTED (SECURELY HOUSED ONLY)
    6. ARACHNIDS / SCORPIONS / MILLIPEDES ARE PERMISSIBLE
    7. NO NATIVE NY REPTILES OR AMPHIBIAMS FOR SALE. No Federally protected or endangered species without proper permits.
    8.

    NO SALES of herp species restricted by NYS law. (Includes all crocodilians, venomous, various large boids such as Reticulated, Burmese and, African Rock Pythons; Anacondas, and large monitors such as Nile, Black-Throat and White-Throat Monitors without proper permits.)
    9. NO SALES of Aquatic / or / Semi-Aquatic Turtles under 4-inches carapace length unless with proper permit (they can only be sold to wildlife educators, etc.)
    10. NO SALES of Terrapene species ( North American Box turtles )
    11. NO ALCOHOL OR SMOKING ALLOWED ON THE PREMISE
    12. NO REFUNDS AFTER SEPTEMBER 1ST, 2009
    13. TABLES NOT OCCUPIED BY 11:00 AM MAY BE RESOLD (NO REFUND TO ORIGINAL PURCHASER)
    14. VENDORS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR COLLECTING NYS SALES TAX ( 8.50% )
    15. ALL SALES are BETWEEN Vendor and Customer. we are NOT responsible for the transactions.
    16. ONLY Registered Vendors MAY SELL at the show. NO EXCEPTIONS AND THOSE CAUGHT TRYING TO SELL ANIMALS WILL BE ASKED TO LEAVE WITHOUT REFUNDS.
     
  21. i believe its exact opposite.... that you can buy but not own in new york because at our rescue we get alot of DEC turn overs where they take monitors because they are to large also may wanna check this out:


    § 11-0511. Possession and transportation of wildlife.
    Subject to the provisions of section 11-0512 of this article, no
    person shall, except under a license or permit first obtained from the
    department containing the prominent warning notice specified in
    subdivision nine of section 11-0917 of this article, possess, transport
    or cause to be transported, imported or exported any live wolf, wolfdog,
    coyote, coydog, fox, skunk, venomous reptile or raccoon, endangered
    species designated pursuant to section 11-0535 of this title, species
    named in section 11-0536 of this title or other species of native or
    non-native live wildlife or fish where the department finds that
    possession, transportation, importation or exportation of such species
    of wildlife or fish would present a danger to the health or welfare of
    the people of the state, an individual resident or indigenous fish or
    wildlife population. Environmental conservation officers, forest rangers
    and members of the state police may seize every such animal possessed
    without such license or permit. No action for damages shall lie for such
    seizure, and disposition of seized animals shall be at the discretion of
    the department.

    means if they dont think its "safe" they can take it! super broad and basically allows them to do w/e just some extra info for ya
     

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